Historian Greg Jackson believes the current moment of political divisiveness and upheaval in the U.S. is not “unprecedented.” To make that point, he draws a surprising comparison – President Donald Trump to President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
With the caveat that there are also differences, he said that like today, FDR’s time in office was a divided moment with the New Deal. To conservatives, he was “a dictator, someone who’s taking power,” and to liberals, he was a “savior.”
“You see a very strong minded president and one who is coloring outside the lines a bit,” said Jackson, a national security professor at Utah Valley University and host of the podcast “History That Doesn’t Suck.”
“What we see time and time again in history is that Americans tend to be pretty forgiving of presidents coloring outside the lines — if that president represents their party. And suddenly they are staunch constitutionalists when it's the other party.”
He said it’s important for Americans to think about what they expect of presidents and if it’s consistent across political parties.
Jackson also believes looking to the past could offer some insight for today’s Utahns.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Ciara Hulet: What other moments in history would you compare today to?
Greg Jackson: So frankly, most — more moments than not. We'll hear people say, “Oh, it's never been worse,” even as they consciously know there was a freaking Civil War, right? We literally lined up and shot at each other. We had the bloodiest day in American history, over 20,000 casualties, and yet we somehow have the gall to think it's never been worse.
CH: And when you look back at those moments in history, how did they resolve? And what could that say about what the future of the U.S. might be in the months and years to come?
GJ: They don't resolve entirely. That's another false misnomer. It's kind of like, if you're in a marriage, there are probably a few fights that you just have over and over and over again, because you're two separate people and you have two different views. Now, in a healthy marriage, you're going to learn to harness those differences, right? There's real value in say, one spouse wants to go spend money in a certain way, and the other saying, “Do we really have money for that?”
Now, that's gone. That's not existing in this moment, but that's the hill and valley that I see throughout U.S. history. The Civil War is, of course, the peak instance of distrust. The resolution that comes is more coming back to the table and saying we're going to have these hard discussions again, and many times in very ugly ways. Reconstruction, which is the era after Civil War, did not end well. It led to the Jim Crow era that lasted for a century.
But the long and short is that, expecting utopia, expecting perfection — that's never going to happen. Being able to have a dialogue with people we disagree with, that's what makes democracy function at its best, and right now, we just happen to be in one of those valleys where we're not doing that. So the choice to rise above that. That's our best answer.
CH: What does history tell us about how national divisiveness could affect local communities like in Utah?
GJ: First of all, when we check out of our local politics, that's when we let the, should I say, the “zealots” of either party really run with the party, and that only exacerbates things. People need to be involved and let the parties be places of actual discussion, not just mind numbing agreement and finger pointing across the aisle. We also have to be careful to not let the national politics become litmus tests for local.
Americans, unfortunately, really fixate on the presidential, so then we check out, and we leave the local to be run by those who are most excited. But they tend to be the ones who are the most extreme. It's my city council, it's my mayor, it's my state representative, my state senator — those are the people who are going to make decisions that really impact my life day-to-day, far more than what happens at the national level. As hard as that might feel to believe or swallow in this moment, I promise you that's always gonna be the case.
CH: With so many executive orders and changes coming from the top of the government, what are some things you think Utahns might be able to do when they feel like all the power in the country lies with the President?
GJ: Utahns should be engaging with their representatives, with their senator[s]. If they don't like what's happening and their answer is to simply give up or just post on Facebook, well, then you have surrendered your voice. And a republic only functions when citizens engage.
